Reweaving the Legal Fabric: Full Transcript

Victoria Watson, Ecojustice 0:00
Original Guardians of the lands that we are hosting this event on, and that we now call Ottawa.

We do acknowledge the Anishinaabe’s long-standing relationship with this territory, which remains unceded and unsurrendered.

We also pay respect to all Indigenous People in this region from all nations across Canada, Turtle Island, who call Ottawa home or are here visiting.

We acknowledge the traditional knowledge keepers, both young and old, and we honour their courageous leaders: past, present and future.

0:38 Victoria Watson
I like to take a moment to just kind of let that settle. And I’m going to bring a little bit of my own story into this, I think, to get us started, because I feel like it helps me ground myself, at least in why I’m here. I am a lawyer at Ecojustice. I’m also of mixed Haudenosaunee and Scottish descent. I did not grow up in a traditional context.

I have been on the slow and winding road of reclaiming my heritage and finding my own relationship to my indigeneity. And through that reclaiming, I have had the privilege of being taught about the Two Row Wampum belt, and you know, as I was thinking about why we’re coming here today, that the Two Row Wampum just really, really lays it out clearly for me. So I want to share a little bit about that.

The Two Row Wampum belt is a beautiful beaded belt. It has three rows of white beads, and in between those three rows are two rows of purple beads. The purple beads represent two vessels, or a canoe and a ship, and the white beads represent tenants of a particular relationship. And this is a Haudenosaunee teaching and the Two Row Wampum, specifically I learned about in the 1600s through Haudenosaunee relationships with the Dutch and so Two Row Wampum is really seen as the embodiment of an agreement. It is an agreement itself. It is the embodiment of sovereignty.

So the white beads that surround the two vessels represent peace, friendship, honour. There’s lots of different English words that have been used to describe the tenants that these white beads represent. There’s also this everlasting foreverness of you know, until the end of time we exist in this relationship, and it’s living. And as I mentioned, the purple beads depict a ship and a canoe in the particular instance of relationships between Indigenous and European settlers.

And so I have some quotes to kind of tie these pieces together. And so one of the quotes states that, in one row is a ship with our white brothers’ ways, and the other a canoe with our ways. Each will travel down the river of life side by side. Neither will attempt to steer the other’s vessel.

Another quote describes the Wampum belt by stating that together, we will travel in friendship and in peace forever, as long as the grass is green, as long as the water runs downhill, as long as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, and as long as our Mother Earth will last.

So essentially, the Two Row Wampum belt depicts and teaches us about what it means to peacefully coexist in relationship with brothers and sisters, with equals. We do not interfere with each other’s rights to govern. We are equals, both navigating the same bodies of water, and in co-navigation, we are in relationship, but we are not father and son. We are not parent and child. We are brothers. We are sisters. We are equals.

And I think that expression of sovereignty is so sacred and special because we don’t see that in Canadian law. We see glimmers of it, but that depiction of coexistence and legal pluralism is not presently the experience that we have as Indigenous Peoples, as settlers here in so called Canada, where Indigenous sovereignty is almost always subordinate to Crown sovereignty.

And when you look at the Two Row Wampum, to me, it shines light on why we’re all here, which is to address the fact that there have been some advancements made in environmental conservation, but those advancements to uplift and actualize Indigenous rights and jurisdiction are ad hoc. They’re inconsistent and they’re insufficient to fully implement the type of shared sovereignty that the Two Row Wampum belt depicts.

So the objective of being here tonight and of gathering and of continuing this work together amongst the organizing partners is really to explore, through engagement with Indigenous practitioners and legal scholars, what paths need to be created to reconcile state and Indigenous laws and jurisdictions, and whether and how those pathways can be carved or enshrined into state law with a focus on environmental legal frameworks, and that is what has inspired the event this evening.

And the journey that got us here would not have occurred without our sponsors and partners, which are notably the Metcalf foundation, the University of Ottawa, Conservation through Reconciliation Partnership, David Suzuki Foundation, Ecojustice, Gwen Bridge Consulting, as well as other supporters of the project, including Grand Council Treaty #3, the World Wildlife Fund, and the Centre for Environmental Law and Global Sustainability.

And to get us started, I will now introduce Kristen Boone, the inaugural Susan & Perry Dellelce Dean of Common Law at the University of Ottawa. Kristen Boone’s leadership focuses on building an inclusive community and fostering a just, equitable environment. She is committed to teaching students about the Indigenous experience in Canada and the role of law as both a limiting and empowering force.

An expert in international law, her work covers topics like international responsibility, access to justice and immunities. She has lectured globally, published widely, and held visiting fellowships. Before uOttawa, she spent 15 years as a law professor in the United States. We welcome you, Dean Boone.

6:41 Applause. Thank you

Kristen Boone, Susan & Perry Dellelce Dean of Common Law, University of Ottawa 6:48
Thank you very much.

(FR) Bonsoir, je suis heureuse d’être ici ce soir et de vous accueillir à ce panel.

La discussion portera sur la manière dont le droit peut aider les communautés à se rassembler pour aborder les questions de réconciliation et de justice climatique.

À notre faculté à l’Université d’Ottawa, ces questions sont au cœur de la recherche de certains de nos professeurs comme Aimée Craft.

Ces questions sont également parties intégrantes des travaux de nos étudiants qui travaillent en collaboration avec Ecojustice, qui co-parraine l’événement ce soir.

(EN) In ecosystems, when two biosystems come together, that’s where change happens. That’s where we have new species. That’s where we find pollution, but it’s also where we find innovation. And I can tell that this is going to be a panel followed by a two-day workshop where there is a lot of innovation and a lot of innovative thinking.

(FR) À l’ONU, c’est la Semaine du climat, plusieurs nations se rassemblent dans un but commun, soit de mobiliser les organisations gouvernementales et non gouvernementales pour atténuer le plus possible les changements climatiques.

(EN) I’m glad that we are investing in these parallel discussions here in Ottawa. I know the results of this panel and this workshop will be important, and they’ll be very important for the Canadian government as well, too. Jesse Wente will be the panel chair this evening, and I really look forward to hearing from him and Aimée Craft, Sue Chiblow, and Lisa Young.

Our role here in Ottawa is to support the knowledge base of First Peoples, and Ottawa is extremely well placed to do this. I’m excited to hear what the presenters are going to come up to.This aligns with core values that we hold at the Faculty of Law at the University of Ottawa. Thank you very much, and have a good discussion.

Victoria Watson, Ecojustice 8:47
Thank you, Dean Boone. I now have the pleasure of introducing you folks to Jesse Wente a prominent Indigenous film critic and broadcaster known for being the first nationally syndicated Indigenous columnist for CBC. As chair of the Canada Council for the Arts, he advocates for Indigenous representation in media. His work includes the book, “Unreconciled,” and the award-winning adaptation of the “Inconvenient Indian.”

Jesse’s career spans roles, such as executive director of the Indigenous screen office and director of film programs at TIFF Bell Lightbox. He is a vocal advocate for Indigenous rights and has received numerous accolades for his contribution to arts and media. All yours. Jesse.

Applause 9:33

Jesse Wente, Broadcaster, Indigenous Advocate & Pop Culture Philosopher 9:38
Thank you so much. I’m very delighted to be here. And I really look forward to the conversation with this very distinguished panel. Just by way to complete my own introduction, my name is Jesse Wente. I’m Anishinaabe Ojibwe. My family comes from Chicago and Genabajing First Nation or Genabajing Anishinaabek, which the government calls the Serpent River First Nation on the north shore of Lake Huron, and I am Bear Clan, and now it’s my pleasure to introduce our distinguished panel.

On the far end is Aimée Craft, who’s a lawyer and associate professor at the University of Ottawa, recognized internationally for her work in Indigenous law, treaties and water governance. She has served in key roles, including Director of Research at the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls. Amy is of mixed Indigenous, Anishinaabe, Métis, and settler ancestry, and her research is Indigenous-led and interdisciplinary, focusing on decolonizing water governance and treaty philosophy. Her award-winning books include “Breathing Life Into the Stone Fort Treaty” and “Treaty Words,” which is a classic, if you haven’t, for kid’s book – love that book.

Next to her is Lisa Young – is the Executive Director of the Unama’ki Institute of Natural Resources, where she has played a key role in advancing Mi’kmaq natural resource and environmental issues. Starting as a biologist, Lisa has grown with UINR, leading initiatives in aquatic and natural resource management using a two-eyed seeing approach. She enjoys balancing her leadership role with family life and continues to be deeply involved in environmental advocacy across various sectors.

And Dr. Sue Bell Chiblow is an Anishinaabe kwe from Garden River First Nation and an expert in environmental science with over 30 years of experience working with First Nations communities. With a PhD in environmental science focused on water knowledge, she serves as an assistant professor at the University of Guelph and continues to work as an advisor on environmental projects and policy analysis. Sue is committed to integrating traditional ecological knowledge into modern environmental practices. Welcome to all of you and I can’t wait.

Applause 11:48

Jesse Wente 11:52
Let’s start at the very beginning.

Jesse Wente 11:54
We’ll start with maybe you, Sue. What is Indigenous law?

Sue Chiblow 12:00
Before I answer that question, I would like to introduce myself a little bit further.
(Anishinaabemowin) Sue Chiblow ndizhinikass, Jijuak indoodem, Ketaguanzeebing indoonjiba, Anishinaabe Ojbway endow. Ketaguanzeebing indaa noogom, Ansihinaabek aki indoojibaa

(English translation) My name is Sue Chiblow, I am Crane Clan, I am from Garden River First Nation, I am Anishinaabek Ojibway, I live in Garden River First Nation, I am from the lands of the Anishinaabek.

My English name is Sue Chiblow. I am from Garden River First Nation where I also live. I commute back and forth through Guelph. Don’t ask me why I do that. It’s a seven-drive, but it’s a beautiful drive. So I reside in my community. I’m also a first Indigenous woman being appointed to the International Joint Commission, which is an agency, a commission that was established in the 1900s based on a treaty between Canada, the United States to deal with transboundary water issues. And there’s six commissioners, three appointed from Canada and three from the United States of America.

So what is Indigenous law? In our language, and I am not a fluent language speaker. I’m just bangii, I know, just a little bit, but I work with fluent language speakers, and we understand what we term “law” as “Inaakonigewin.” So we say “Anishinaabek Inaakonigewin,” and “Inaakonigewin” doesn’t translate just right into law. It has to do with hearing from the heart, seeing from the heart because it’s loosely translated into that. So you can see the difference just from that word of law to Inaakonigewin and the differences just right in that word alone.

So my understandings of Anishinaabek Inaakonigewin, and again, this knowledge that I have, it’s not my knowledge. It has come from working with Elders, from my grandmother, from my father, a whole bunch of other Elders, a lot of them from Treaty 3, but from Robinson-Huron Treaty territory, and what they have explained to me is it’s the way that we encompass compassion, it’s not based on enforcement. It’s based on understanding. It’s based on kindness. It is based on obligations to responsibilities that we have with the entire world, so these relationships that we are in, and my understanding is that our Anishinaabe justice system would look totally different than what it does today or what is now enforced.

And there is a program out there, and I don’t know how frequent it is or where it’s actually used anymore, but it used to be called the Aboriginal Diversionary Program, because back in the day, they called us Aboriginals, and then they called us Indigenous. First, they called us Indians because some guy was lost. So here we are today with a new name, Indigenous. And so these are a justice program that helps young people who have or maybe old too, because we might get into trouble when we break one of the Crown laws. And we can sit inside this circle with the people that have been affected, including our own families.

So say, for instance, I vote, and I don’t know, steal somebody’s $500 car, and I could go to this circle, and so whoever’s car I took along with the family and my family, because it would have been an embarrassment on my family for that type of behavior. And we would sit in a circle, and we would talk about these things and the embarrassment that I have caused, the harm that I have caused, but there would be forgiveness there also, and so our Anishinaabek Inaakonigewin is quite different than what we know today as law. Thank you.

Jesse Wente 15:38
Thank you so much. Lisa, I think it’s a good idea, we heard all of the titles and all the accomplishments. But maybe could you explain what it is you actually do and how that intersects with Indigenous law?

Lisa Young 15:50
I’m the Executive Director of the Unama’ki Institute of Natural Resources. Like I was introduced, my background is in biology so I started working for one of our home communities in Eskasoni, right out of university. One of my first jobs was actually working on an oyster farm, and as our organization was just formed in 1999.

Lisa Young 16:12
And the need rose from a proposed dredging of our Bras d’Or Lake, and our community was kind of put off by that and opposed to that. And I’ll keep it short, because it’s a long story, but the gist of it is that some of our leaders went to the government and were asking all these questions about the impact that that would have on the Bras d’Or Lake.

How is that going to impact the fisheries and the species that live there, how’s it going to impact the water, the flow. And the answer they got was that they really didn’t know but they were going to go ahead and give this permit for the dredging anyways because the company wanted to bring in bigger ships. They could haul out more gypsum.

And we eventually, we took them to court, and we won, and the project was stopped, not before it was like 98% completed. But then there was this understanding that, well, you know, you need to consult with First Nations. But to say that the reason why we created the institute was because of the lack of understanding of the lake. Well, the vision was, well, let’s have our own Indigenous youth and people as scientists, as researchers, doing that work because if the government is not going to be out there protecting our resources, then we have to step up and do it.

So our organization now has grown. We have almost 30 people working for us now, and we have a lot of biologists and foresters, but we also work very closely with the community in bringing traditional knowledge and understandings and from our community, from the Elders and the knowledge holders, or the people before that are on the land that still have relationship with the land and still understand the land.

And they inform our work, and that work in turn, as a technical body to our leadership, we give them advice when they’re at the table, sitting with government, whether it be the federal, provincial government, talking about issues around mining or forestry or species at risk or species of concern in that space, in that relationship, we support that work through science and traditional knowledge. So we have a lot of responsibilities in coming up with Indigenous management plans. We don’t like to call it management plans, that we try to incorporate our own understanding of knowledge. So we’re trying to change that narrative to say more things like the land relationship.

So for us, that Indigenous law is to reconnect with the land, to have a better understanding of the land, to make sure our communities are revitalized, and cultural and language revitalization is a big part of our work because we understand that, that that relationship that you spoke to and that responsibility is a big part of that, that reemergence of Netukulimk, and how that informs what we do, how that guides us, our values, our cultures, our belief systems guide our work, right?

From my understanding, what I’m learning that that’s our self is like our understanding of natural law and forms our own Indigenous law, and how we conduct ourselves on the land, which then we have the fun job of trying to integrate that perspective into government policy, government legislation, and government management approaches so that’s what we do.

Jesse Wente 19:27
Thank you so much, and I love that, just the reframing of going from management to relationship is such a key, a key one. Aimée, can you maybe describe your work and then talk maybe about the importance of reweaving our legal fabric?

Aimée Craft 19:42
Sure, happy to. So in prefacing that piece of introduction about myself is that I hold this responsibility for a Research Chair Nibi miinawaa aki inaakonigewin, which is Indigenous governance in relationship with land and water. So it’s being in relationship. Picking up on what Lisa said, you know, acknowledging that we are not as humans, governing our natural environment, but being actually instructed to do certain things if we know how to listen properly.

And that understanding, for me, comes from kind of a career trajectory where I was junior lawyer, working in the community and talking about Treaty rights and working on oral history projects with Elders who said to me, like, you know this is not right, like, what the law tells you and what you’re telling us about the law is actually not a reflection of how we see the world, how we think the world should be structured.

And from there, I was given that responsibility to work on decolonizing as much as I could. Obviously, this is not one person’s job, but really entering into space to put in a solid effort to revitalize while also deconstructing. And I think that’s an important part of what we’ll be discussing in the next few days; what is it that needs to be built up, but also, what is it that needs to be deconstructed so that Indigenous law can actually flourish.

In a lot of spaces, colonization assumes, subsumes, imposes, and that’s the reverse of what most Indigenous legal systems are telling us. Indigenous laws, as Sue mentioned, are working on systems of voluntary compliance. Those are the words of Fred Kelly. They are a way of life. Those are the words of Alan White. And so we look to Anishinaabek Inaakonigewin or Anishinaabe law as these procedures and these substantive values and principles that help us guide our way of life, but don’t prescribe it. We have that agency that’s built in so inherently into the way that we live our lives.

So if we think about then what Indigenous laws are and how they can be, you know, I think you asked or use the word “woven,” in some cases, there’s a necessary infiltration. In some cases, we need to find ways to recognize conflict and deal with that, and that we get actually by looking at our natural environment as a guide to how to deal with certain types of conflict, and hopefully we can chat through some of that as we explore revitalization, rekindling, and actually the proper space that Indigenous laws have in how we make decisions and how we live our lives collectively.

Jesse Wente 22:32
Thank you so much for that. We’ve talked about Indigenous law, but I’m just curious how it relates from Nation to Nation because obviously we’re not all the same Nation. So how do we define Indigenous law with the sort of multinational state of Turtle Island? How do we reconcile those sorts of differences?

Sue Chiblow 22:54
Well, there’s a couple things there. Those are two totally different world views. And I can only speak from an Anishinaabek perspective, but from an Anishinaabek perspective, we understand that everything, all the beings, rocks, grass, animals, water, trees, the sky world, is all imbued with spirit, but when we look at the colonial worldview, it is based on commodification or resources.

And even the English language is such a dangerous language because we think about that word, “ it,” two letters, but how it demeans so many different beings just by calling that being an “it.” So there’s so many differences there and how do we reconcile those differences there? I think for, in many instances, there’s opportunity to create space for Indigenous Peoples to explain and explore and have conversations and like Aimée mentioned, you know, there’s going to be conflicts. That’s natural.

How do we deal with those conflicts? How do we sit at the table or and in a space and be respectful? So I also think that, you know, the old people have always told me, “Chiblow, when you’re doing something, don’t go down to their ivory towers. Go out, take them out onto the land.” And one example of when, so I work with these Elders.

They call themselves the Traditional Ecological Knowledge Elders, even though they’re fluid language speakers. And again, it’s my best advice to them to use their own language, they said, “No, this is what we’re going to call ourselves,” because people are familiar with that, and so their primary goal is to stop the use of herbicide spraying and forestry operations.

So what happens in our territory, in our kitchen, in our education system, in our pharmacy is forestry companies come in and do extract trees, and they do what they call select cutting. So they’ll leave one or two trees standing there all by themselves. And then they come in and they spray this herbicide, which is the one of the main ingredients, is glyphosate, and that attacks broadleaf plants.

So that means that maple trees, birch trees, poplar trees, blueberries, anything that has a green leaf cannot grow. And then they go in and they make plantations. And if you’ve ever been into one of those spots, and I encourage people to find those spots and go sit there and just sit there and listen, you will hear absolutely nothing. It is dead silence, and that has a profound effect on you as a human being.

And so understanding that these are why we’re trying to protect the natural environment, trying to protect the lands, which includes the waters in the sky world, and being able to commit, do an action and go sit in one of those spaces, and that’s just one example. I’m sure there’s many other examples, but like, go to Sarnia and go sit down there on the reserve, and look at that little creek that flows through their reserve and the amount of pollution that’s coming up in the air, and you’ll begin to understand how that actually feels, and then why Indigenous Peoples are so passionate about protecting the environment.

So there’s different opportunities. We’re in Ottawa. There’s a nuclear facility up the road here, somewhere along the river. So there’s many opportunities that people can go and sit in those spaces and have those discussions with Indigenous Peoples as to why they’re so important, and I feel that that’ll be part of the foundation of understanding Indigenous law, but also understanding Indigenous knowledge systems, Indigenous science.

And when you’re actually starting to do that, the old people always tell me, “It always begins right here. It always begins with self, then it resonates out.” So if we want to make change, we need to look in the mirror, and what are we actually doing? What are you actually doing besides just having conversations, what are you actually doing to make that change happen?

And so I think there’s multiple opportunities for people to have those conversations, and they may be difficult and they may be uncomfortable, but uncomfortable is okay. It’s okay to be uncomfortable. I don’t know where somebody made a rule saying that if you’re uncomfortable, there’s something wrong with you. Like I don’t know where that even came from, but these are the type of things that I think that we can participate in and begin to understand.

I’m always reminding people, just do your homework. You know, every single First Nation, and there’s a lot of Métis Nations – all have websites. They all have information on the website because we’re not the same. And I think Jesse, you mentioned that, that we are not the same. There are 633 First Nations in Canada alone and the diversity of languages. It’s so funny; somebody thought that I could understand Haudenosaunee people. I can’t even understand my own language as an Anishinaabe, never mind Haudenosaunee people like, and then people out west.

Jesse Wente 27:52
They would be so upset if we started speaking their language.

Sue Chiblow 27:55
And I can’t you know, even to pronounce the words, I’m just stumbling. Even with the Indigenous Peoples that are across the mountains, their languages are so different, and so we are very diverse. But I think there are overarching principles that we have. And I think this is worldwide, for all Indigenous Peoples, and that goes back to, you know, we all call the Earth our mother. We are the baby of creation. Every being is imbued with spirit. So these overarching principles are always there. It’s just the differences is in the languages, our protocols, our ceremonies, that are quite different.

And I think that, for me, in this day and age, there is absolutely no excuse for not to know something about Indigenous Peoples because there are zillions of books out there. Jesse wrote one himself. I mean, he has written a couple, and there’s so many things on the internet, the world wide web, so there’s really absolutely no reason in this day and age to say, well, I don’t know, because if you don’t know, then there’s something else going on. Maybe you don’t have a computer, you know. Some people don’t. I know that, and or are on the internet. I’m one of them. I have a hard time with the internet, yeah, so thank you.

Jesse Wente 29:08
Thank you so much. I think that touched on something. Lisa, you mentioned that contrast in worldview sort of in your first answer. And of course, the law systems, you know, Indigenous law as well as colonial law sort of springs forth or as a part of that worldview, slightly, I would suggest a different relationship in terms of culture and everything. So is it possible to weave those two things because they come from such a different understanding of the world?

Lisa Young 29:36
That’s so interesting. So we work through our organization always looking through the lens of – Albert Marshall brought us the concept of – two-wide seeing, right? So that’s the kind of approach we take when we look at the work that we do.

Lisa Young 29:54
But when you’re talking about Nation to Nation, right, so I’ll start with that, right. So you mentioned there’s multiple Nations within Canada, and you’re right. So like this, there’s an underlying thread for all Indigenous people across the world, right with an understanding of how we fit on this land, and that we are part of the land, we are not apart from the land, and that we have to conduct ourselves accordingly, right? We get that. That’s not the same kind of concept that comes when you look at the different colonial and capitalism practices of non-Indigenous people.

Lisa Young 30:27
But what I think is, when you’re talking about, how do we get to integrating that. I think there needs to be space. So in Mi’kma’ki, we have our Treaty right, our Peace and Friendship Treaty. At that time, we were recognized as a Nation, right? We were a Nation. They made treaty with us. At some point in our shared history, Canada conveniently forgot about that, or didn’t want to acknowledge it, or just plain just ignored it because they wanted to push ahead with their colonial capitalism agenda, let’s be honest.

But I don’t know if you can ever integrate the two because you can’t impose your culture and belief system on someone, right? But I think you can have an ever true Nation to Nation relationship, and how you get to that point is, first of all, you have to acknowledge the Nations as such, because it’s not going to be easy, obviously, right? But you have to give them the agency and the ability to sit down and co-create something right?

Whatever that looks like. And I think about that because so so often when we’re working with different government departments, it’s like we have to constantly remind them that our Indigenous communities are not stakeholders. We’re rights holders, and we don’t have to be in line with a lot of the stuff that they do in terms of engage in community or engage in stakeholders, or getting input or trying to get information from what I can say, they’re their constituents, right?

We have our own government, right? We have our own people. Our leadership engages our community. They get their advice and they get their input, and we take different things in consideration than they do when we come up with our approach or our ideals or our ideal situation, or what decisions we would make in that instance. Right?

So sometimes what I envisioned at some point we need to be at is that our leadership should be able to come to the table as equals with government and sit and discuss how things are going to be done in an equitable way, right? Like, how are we at the – level the playing field?

Because right now, it’s very hard. There’s a lot of work that’s being done on different fronts, but it is inconsistent about incorporating Indigenous views or perspectives. When it’s easy and convenient, it’s done when it’s hard, it’s not done so well. But if the government actually treated us as a Nation, that we were right, they would be sitting down across from our leaders, discussing things, and our leadership would be coming to their own conclusions based on our Indigenous laws and belief systems and community needs, right?

Lisa Young 33:26
That really, if they treat us the Nation, their government employees wouldn’t even come into our community to talk to us. They wouldn’t even come and talk to our organization, right? They’d be coming talking to our leaders, right?

So I don’t know if we’re ever going to get to that point. I’m thinking, in order for us to have true integration, that that has to happen, but until then, we have a lot of good work that’s being done on the ground, through initiatives, different programs, different relationships that are being built when there’s a conscious effort to do a two-eyed seeing approach to things.

And in some ways, it is being integrated. It is being done like I said, but usually it’s what the government calls with the low hanging fruit kind of projects, right? So when it really comes down to big things, not so much. I don’t know.

Jesse Wente 34:15
I think most of the fruit they’re interested in is already falling off the tree and they’re just there. It’s already there, and they’re just sort of picking it up. That’s an incredible vision, but I guess Aimée, barring a constitutional process which has always gone so well in this country, how do we bring about Lisa’s like, how do we get there? Like, you’re a lawyer? Help us? Because that feels like the vision that the Elders talk about, like that was what they thought would come of this place, and yet we’re here. So I’m interested in, like, “Are there success stories, or are there ways that we can see a path through this?”

Aimée Craft 34:54
I think, going back to your original treaty theory, which is recognition as sovereigns, and building relationships on that basis, and renewable relationships, the groundwork is already set. It is just actually implementing it and recognizing it. And I think there’s great hubris also in saying like there is a Nation to Nation relationship, even in treaties, there are Nation to Nation to Nation to Nation to Nation to Nation to Nation treaties.

These have been happening with non-human beings and entities on this territory far longer than there have been humans in this territory. So I think that’s also important to recognize. And right now, there’s a couple things that are happening on the political, legal landscape that help us maybe understand how acknowledging the agency of others, other beings, non-human entities, can actually help us as humans, make better treaty relationships and actually live somewhere closer to Nation to Nation, between settler states and Indigenous governments.

This week, there’s a celebration of the 10-year anniversary of the Buffalo Treaty happening in Lethbridge in Kainai, and this is in southern Alberta, and the Blackfoot Confederacy has worked really hard to create, to negotiate, to make this treaty with the Buffalo at the table. With a seat at the table as part of the treaty to honour the Buffalo – their relationship, their lack of preservation of the keystone species in their territory, and promise to under that treaty relationship, return to the state of honouring the Buffalo’s keystone role.

So that’s a beginning of what I think can lead to good, collaborative environmental conservation initiatives, or co-management, or whatever we want to call it, between those human-centric state governments, is to actually exercise good practice with our other relations.

The other example I would point to is what’s happening in my home territory right now. Lake Winnipeg just filed a lawsuit for recognition of its Section 7: rights to life, liberty and security of the person. So a request that, through that Charter challenge and a recognition of Indigenous law within the territory, there be recognized rights to the lake. Building on that, there’s some other work that’s happening regarding the lake to build a water treaty for the whole of the watershed as well. So different approaches that are taking place. In some cases, we call this legal personhood, or pursuits of legal personhood for non-human entities or water bodies.

In the case of the Water Treaty, the Nations that are helping to lead that have said we don’t want this western mechanism of legal personhood to stand in the way of what we see as the spiritedness and agency of the water that’s flowing from all these different spaces, and that we actually want to be guided by the water that’s flowing in and of itself, in ways that totally defy jurisdictional boundaries, physical boundaries and geographic boundaries. So I think our human-centric solutions haven’t been working all that well. We might need to look at other relatives to help guide us.

Jesse Wente 38:19
That’s really fascinating. I can only imagine how that goes when you’re talking to government like that. But we have had a somewhat more sympathetic government of the past few years, and yet it seems there’s still a lot of barriers. Can you start? Maybe I’ll start with you again, Aimée. We can come back this way. What are some of the barriers you see to actually getting to realize what you’re talking about like, beyond just actually saying that in a room full of government bureaucrats and expecting them to understand, but beyond that, like, what are you running into on the ground that’s blocking progress.

Aimée Craft 38:55
Money, power and process. A lot of decisions are motivated by financial considerations like we know that in this room and power associated with that money. I write a lot on hydroelectric development within my province, and the problematic relationship that that has as a Crown entity, and then how we then consider we, even, I would say bend our moral values in making decisions through sustainability lenses and environmental lenses to actually take into account financial, socio-economic interests.

So these sets of values kind of get conflated in the process of how these decisions are made. We create bodies that have kind of high ideals and aspirations in name, but then are stuck with the consequences of having to deal with power imbalances and ultimate agendas that are driven by profit.

Jesse Wente 39:57
Lisa, for you, what do you see as the big sticking points?

Lisa Young 40:00
Okay, my last answer was a little harsh on the government, but I want to say…

Jesse Wente 40:05
I’m here for it.

Lisa Young 40:05
… that in Nova Scotia, we actually have incomparable to rest of Canada, a really good relationship with the province, so much in fact, that our word “Netukulimk,” that we use for sustainability, our understanding of relationship and the land and sustainable seven generations concept is actually in Nova Scotia legislation for biodiversity and climate legislation.

There’s reference to Netukulimk and a commitment to use that, to work towards Netukulimk. Saying that, the level of depth and understanding from the government side of what that actually means in terms of it being a nice term, or a definition of sustainability versus the underlining understandings of Indigenous law and values and belief systems that come with that as a knowledge system, not quite there yet in understanding, but it’s there. So the space is there.

So there has been actually a lot of work that’s been done with the province in helping to do a lot of work. And some examples as we do have a co-governance table with the province in the creation of the management, or, we don’t want to say management, the land relationship and stewarding our IPCA as an example, right?

There’s a Mi’kmaq Forestry Initiative, where there are communities that have actually been given forced utilization agreements. They give us the space to reimagine what modern commercial forestry would look like through an Indigenous lens, and it to be guided by the land itself, as opposed to have an industry or profit kind of drive the type of forestry you’re doing.

Jesse Wente 41:48
That’s what an IPCA is?

Lisa Young 41:50
No. An IPCA is kind of like a concept really. It’s the Indigenous Protected and Conserved Areas. So IPCA, in itself, doesn’t have any legislative or legal kind of teeth. It’s a way of framing and creating space and momentum and movement and for Indigenous-led approaches to conservation within the pathway to target one, the 30 by 30 space, to say that colonial perspectives around protected areas are problematic, to say the least, and that Indigenous perspectives and approaches to land relationship and protection have value.

And there needs to be a resurgence of that kind of approach. So that was kind of framed in this idea of IPCAs and support for Indigenous communities to create space, to reconnect with the land and resurgence, or re-emergence of Indigenous approaches to conservation and Indigenous law and language and all that. So we actually have space and commitment from our province to create those.

Jesse Wente 43:06
Aimée, yeah

Aimée Craft 43:07
Oh, yeah. Can I just get to the thing about … I’m trying to … what was your question about? I was making a point …

Jesse Wente 43:15
… the barriers …

Aimée Craft 43:16
… the barriers, thank you. That, beside all that, some of the barriers back to what you were saying about some of the work that we’re doing, even though there’s a commitment from the provincial government to do some of this work, some of the barriers to this work has always been the existing provincial legislation around things like mining and mine exploration, and they have to make sure, even though they want to commit to doing that work with us, they have to still consider that.

And how is that going to impact mineral rights?
And how is our work going to be impacted or be deterred because there’s already commitments for forestry tenures in this space, right? So trying to juggle between, how can we live up to all those commitments the province have done and past legislation that was totally built on commodifying the natural resources and then still live up to this relationship that they’re trying to build with us? That’s a barrier.

Jesse Wente 44:10
Yeah, I can imagine the whiplash they must feel going from thinking about creating generational wealth to thinking about seven generations of conservation. Aimée, you wanted to add?

Aimée Craft 44:20
Yeah, I just wanted to add to what Lisa was saying on IPCAs or IPAs – Indigenous Protected areas. I think they’re not only a space in which Indigenous law can have an impact in like taking back space, but it’s also a place, because it’s conceptual and it’s kind of like a federal government program that has some funding attached to it.

It’s also a space where there can be withdrawal of certain things that have been imposed historically within what Canada considers to be Crown lands. So I think that just as important as you know what comes into that space in terms of recognition of Indigenous jurisdiction and authority, it’s also really important to note what can be taken out of those spaces, what can be removed from how the Crown sees Crown lands as resources.

Jesse Wente 45:10
So you’re talking about removing jurisdiction or governance law, not resources?

Aimée Craft 45:15
That’s right. Yeah, sorry if I wasn’t clear about that.

Jesse Wente 45:17
No, I just want to make sure everyone understands. Yeah. And quick question. I’m gonna throw it out because I’m really fascinated by this whole IPA. What is stopping us from, just say, turning all current Crown land into that? Because it’s all stolen, like Crown lands’ not a thing. It’s just bullshit. So couldn’t we just advocate that whatever they’re like, all that stuff, that, in theory, they’re holding back, that that just now becomes an IPA and no more Crown land.

Aimée Craft 45:44
That’s great!

Jesse Wente 45:45
Great. That’s your homework, folks. Do that. Test next week. Sue, what about barriers for you? What like? What have you experienced, and how have you found to work around them?

Sue Chiblow 45:59
I think some of the biggest barriers is the lack of understanding – the lack of understanding of Indigenous peoples, or the lack of understanding of non-Indigenous peoples to Indigenous peoples. So the lack of understanding of the true history of Canada. I think it’s legal scholar Sharon Venne who said that there’s one of the most important truths to remember is that as Indigenous Peoples, we were here occupying these lands with our own language, our own laws, our own governance systems.

We were doing that, and that truth is not taught and it’s not taught by the educational institutions, and maybe it has changed a little bit now, but I still get students in my classes that are absolutely angry at their parents, and I tell them, “Don’t be mad at your parents. It’s not their fault or the high schools because they knew nothing of Indigenous peoples.”

And we’re in the year 2024, so the education system is absolutely failing, and this is a bit … that is a huge barrier. How can we begin to work together when we don’t even understand one another? And, you know, I think it was an Elder in Treaty 3 that talked about that, and he had said, you know, as Indigenous peoples, we’ve mastered everything that the colonial peoples have brought into these lands.

We have engineers. We have scientists. We have medical doctors. We have the Indian Act. We have election systems. We understand metaphysics. We understand astronomy. We’ve mastered all of that. We’ve mastered the English language. And yet, when we look at non-Indigenous peoples, not everybody, but many, there’s limited understanding of who Indigenous peoples are.

So that is a huge barrier of us coming together when we can’t even speak the same language and we don’t even understand one another. And so there’s opportunities for that to change within the education systems and or with parents too now today, can also engage with educational processes because it’s not just up to us as Indigenous peoples to protect the lands like we all need water to drink, like that’s just, you know, a reality.

And it’s not just all up to us. I think everybody needs to take a responsibility for that because we look at so many First Nation communities are still on “boil water advisory.” Even in Ontario, they cannot drink the water. They can’t even shower with the water. They get sores. So I think having an awareness and having, again going back to these discussions, and getting the understanding will really help break down some of those barriers on knowing who we are and how we need to move forward.

Jesse Wente 48:45
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I think the fact that we’re not familiar with each other, or I should put it, it’s one way, the unfamiliarity, it’s why it’s concentrated so much on stories because we need to be familiar to get any of this done, and they need to know us more than they do in order to fully grasp that.

I want to give everyone a chance because I’m conscious of time and I want questions, and all of that is going to happen, if there’s one project or work that each of you is particularly excited about that you’d want to highlight. Is there something that you would like to mention to the audience here that you’re like, “This is what energizes me to do this?”

Sue Chiblow 49:21
Well recently, so just working with my people, it just energizes me. But recently, there is a moose project that I’m part of and there’s a few other researchers, including the Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry, or whatever they call themselves today in Ontario, but they’re part of it also in Manitoba – First Nations in Manitoba.

So people from my territory, the Elders, the harvesters are saying that the moose population is in decline. And as a law, we don’t shoot female moose. We don’t shoot cows and we do not shoot babies so we do not shoot calves. We’ve been bugging MNR, who issues licenses to non-Indigenous hunters to stop shooting the cows and the calves but they’re not there yet. Hopefully they will be there because now the science is coming in to demonstrate that this is what part of the problem is, is why these population is in decline, but also to the contamination.

So there was a newspaper article that had come out, and it was a big, big deal, and this was a few years ago because there was a female moose that had had twins. And so my father, who’s 92, who took us into the bush hunting and harvesting all the time. I asked him, I said, “Pops, did you see? Did you read the newspaper? They said, “Twins is like a huge deal.” And he says, he goes, “Yeah, they just don’t know.”

And I said, “Well, why? What was it?” And he goes, “Well, when I was young,” he said, “You see triplets all the time. It was very common to see triplets. Now, twins are a miracle.” And I asked him. I said, “What’s wrong? Why are the moose having a hard time? What’s going on?” And he said, “It’s all that stuff that they’re putting into the water.” And when we talk about glyphosate, the Elders talk about how in the morning you’ll see that dew, that mist on the land, and how it rises and how it moves.

So when you’re spraying just exactly within this 1-kilometer square little box, it doesn’t just stay there, it moves. And so that’s really exciting, and it’s unfortunate because I’m always frustrated with why is it that when we as Indigenous people say this is what the problem is, and then millions of dollars are spent on science to prove that we’re right, and because we’re always right like they’re just catching up to us.

So it’s frustrating, but it’s also exciting because working with a couple communities that are excited to start understanding what their laws are in relationship to the moose, and so we’ll be able to hear a lot of stories, and that is exciting to me is just hanging out and having a cup of tea and listening to all the moose stories.

Jesse Wente 52:03
Oh, I love a good moose story and a good moose and a good moose stew. So we definitely need them to stick around. My grandmother used to tell a story that when she was a kid, you could cross the Genabajing, the Serpent River, by walking on the backs of the fish. That’s how full it was. But then the uranium mine came in Elliot Lake and killed the river. Something you’re excited about, Lisa?

Lisa Young 52:30
Yeah, like, there’s so much things about our work now that’s exciting, and just in the past years, and a lot of it is around the momentum and space that IPCAs has created. Now I know IPCAs is advancing across Canada differently for everyone, and everyone has different opinions and feelings about them.

I know one of the first times when we went to our communities and we were explaining to them about the program we got the funding for and the IPCAs, nine times out of 10, the first question we get from Elders is, excuse my language, “Why the heck are we buying land back? That’s our land. Why are we buying it back?”

They don’t understand the concept, right? So we have to explain. Well, it’s, it’s not our money. It’s federal funding. And that seems to be like, “Okay, that’s not so bad.” But all that to say is there’s some good things about IPCAs because one thing I’m excited about them is the ability, and they’re just so dynamic in what you do within that space.

So a lot of the program we’re doing is a lot about getting people back on the land looking at ways we can use that space and that support to bring back the culture and language from our community. Because one of the things that we learned as an organization way back when is like we do science and we do traditional knowledge, but also that the culture and language was so important in terms of sustainability because we really believe the resurgence of traditional practices of Netukulimk and stewardship, community stewardship is what’s really going to at the end the day going to save our resources, right? So getting people back on the land is so important. That provides space for that.

Also, there’s some exciting new research we’re doing around biocultural indicators and some work around like, just nature based solutions for climate just kind of like, again, what Indigenous people already knew and then just showing is that the land itself is really the answer right to all our problems around around climate change and biodiversity loss and things like that, and allowing Indigenous people to have relationship with the land and showing that, us being on the land and the land supporting our culture and our way of life, is a true indication of health of the land. So using those kind of concepts to integrate that into the research we’re doing and the work we’re doing, it’s an interesting space to be in right now. So yeah.

Jesse Wente 54:53
I love that. What about you?

Aimée Craft 54:56
Okay, I’m gonna geek out for a second here.

Jesse Wente 54:58
Alright! Alright! I’m good.

Aimée Craft 54:59
I’m really interested and excited about transboundary and interjurisdictional water governance. Oh, yeah.

55:08
Applause/Laughter

Aimée Craft 55:10
So what does that mean? And there’s like a particular project that I’m thinking about that I’m super excited about. But at the base that’s looking to water as guiding us in how to make decisions, what kind of decisions to make, in acknowledging how that water flows, what its needs are, looking at quality and quantity.

And to do that across the Canadian and U.S. border with Anishinaabe Nations and Tribes from the Treaty 3 area and into the states that share this responsibility for a watershed and to have that governance led by Indigenous peoples.

So not relying on the states, for American states, for Canadian states, to national governments, not relying on them to kind of convene the tables. But for Anishinaabe People within that watershed to say, “We are convening the table. We’re taking the responsibility. If you want to actually do what you’re supposed to do like your own constitution says you’re going to do, then why don’t you come and sit at our table or at our campfire?”

Jesse Wente 56:10
I love that. Alright. We’re going to turn it over to you fine folks to ask questions. If you want to raise your hand, we will run a microphone to you carefully so as not to trip and fall. But if you want to raise your hand, we can answer some questions or well, the panel can. I know nothing about anything Aimée just said. I geeked out with you. I was with you on the geek out. If you’d thrown like Yoda in there, I would have been all the way.

Jesse Wente 56:39
Yes, in the back there.

Audience Question #1 57:47
Thank you very much for your talk tonight – very informative, very thankful. I’m curious regarding this discussion specifically around Indigenous Protected and Conserved Areas, specifically regarding transboundary issues too when it gets International, I’m curious about – I’m kind of developing this question on the fly because I’m curious about it too – how conflicts can be overcome.
Particularly between Nation to Nation, group to group, especially if these are Indigenous groups in different countries because the state, obviously, in international law, has authority over how it is say water is managed and biodiversity may be managed within their own waters.

But do you envision greater difficulty if it’s between Indigenous groups, state to state versus within Canada, and how specifically, potentially, some ways that state to state relations within Canada can help tackle those very critical cross border issues with, say, water management or species management in shared water regions? Thank you.

Aimée Craft 58:56
Okay, there’s a lot of layers to your question, but I think there’s a certain ethic of, like, we’re just going to do this despite you that can be undertaken, and that has happened for hundreds of years. Citizens, groups do the same. NGOs do the same. Indigenous Nations are going to do the same but I think where people can come together around the, despite you, is saying there’s always a space for that to be collaborative but it has to be based on a similar set of ethics, right? The core values of it.

And that’s where that question you’re asking Sue about, like, do they understand us is so important because if there isn’t a base understanding or a common point you can’t actually collaborate. So I think the question that is first and foremost is, where are the points of collaboration, and what are the proper mechanisms to get to actually achieving those goals and decentering all of those other interests that we’ve identified that stand in the way. And that’s where we’re actually I think going to make some progress on what is “governance” in these areas.

Audience Question #2 58:56
So this question is for the whole panel. Every time I go to my Indigenous law class or an event like this, or even just hear a land acknowledgement, I always kind of feel like it’s a call to action, and some kind of response should be done to all this. And we’ve talked about us doing our homework a little bit. So what can like young law students like 1L, 2L, 3L, who don’t have a ton of experience, but are very like deeply engaged with this topic do as their homework to help out in like the short or medium term future.

Sue Chiblow 59:29
Yeah, that is a great question. I don’t know what L1,2,3, means. I’m just guessing “Lawyer 123,” I don’t know. I think this just applies to all young people is … there is an Elder, and I can’t remember her name, but she actually coined reconciliation, “reconciliACTION.” So there’s actions that can be done, and in Ottawa, there’s so much activities that are happening all the time that people can go and participate in and or support somehow, also to the river, just being out on the river and making those connections yourself with this area.

I understand that there’s Algonquin Park or some amazing park I’ve never been, but is around here, really close, so that’s another nature area. So those types of actions, I think that they can do. But in terms of law school, I’m going to pass that to Aimée because she’s the one who’s teaching that, not me.

Aimée Craft 1:00:21
I would say your most important job is to learn in a deep way, and a great way to learn is by boots on the ground and being offering your services as an ally. Everybody wants to be on the front lines and doing, you know, like the really amazing work, but sometimes it’s the person that actually cleans up the coffee table at the back of the room at the end of the meeting so that you’re not charged the $200 fee.

Those are really important spaces, so listening, sitting and learning and like really actively being of support or of service, I think, is a very important starting point and inform yourself and don’t expect Indigenous people to teach you, but go with a spirit of not wanting to be taught but a spirit of wanting to be learned and be of service.

Audience Question #3 1:01:09
Thank you very much for your talk tonight. I’d also be interested in everybody’s perspective on this. One of the things I’ve been playing with has come up continually tonight, which is communication and how we facilitate understanding.

I’m curious, in each of your careers, your experience, and in your specific discipline, what strategies have you found effective to communicate the knowledge that we’re talking about this evening into a language that’s understood by the dominant culture. For example, Jesse brought up the really good example that you rely on storytelling. I’m curious if any of you have similar suggestions or perspectives that we might be able to action on. Thank you.

Lisa Young 1:01:51
So, we, UINR is really one of our core kind of approaches to our work is all around collaboration and creating those collaborative tables. And sometimes that’s around bringing people together around a shared resource or a shared concern. And that time, when you focus on that shared concern, it’s easier to ask people to come there, like my predecessor, my mentor, my former boss, Charlie Dennis, had this attitude, okay, leave your head at the door, right?

Like, basically, it’s this talk is people and let’s work towards a common solution, or let’s work together. And that’s been very effective for us, you know, building those relationships, those personal relationships, and we see that too with individuals working with the government and stuff, and then you bring them to your territory, and you bring them out on the land, and you share your stories about the land, it’s much more impactful and meaningful experience for them.

So you’re connecting to them on that level as an individual, not as a politician or a person working for an NGO or that, and over the years, there has been a fundamental shift, really, because when I first started working there and Charlie first started this work, there was a lot of tension between our communities and the surrounding municipalities.

There was still a lot of racism, still a lot of mistrust, and in slowly just working with individuals that had the same mindset, the same concerns, the same like, you know, willingness to work together that started in that circle just slowly grew to the point where now we have collaborative tables that have multiple jurisdictions from government, municipal, federal, provincial, NGOs, or self academia, all sitting around one table, working together in a collaborative way, in a respectful way, supporting one another because we have a shared concern.

And there was actually even, I don’t think there’s anything else like this in Canada to this day, like they signed off on a Charter, all of them with common understanding and values and goals that we agreed to work together for the protection of the Bras d’Or Lakes, which is a central if you don’t know if, like with Unama’ki (Cape Breton), there’s the Inland Sea right in smack dab in the middle – the Bras d’Or that is very dear to everyone’s heart that’s in that region. And that was one of the things that we did, is we played quick ourselves. We found a common water body or something, a source, something of importance. It brought us together.

Another thing that brought us together with the government, and we’re working on like a co-management partnership, since I started working there, back back in the 90s, was moose, right? There was a common concern around moose, and that was another thing. Again, we kind of put aside those kind of concerns and differences and misunderstandings that we’ve had in the past, because there’s been a lot with the common goal, common vision that we were working towards, and then that brings people together too right?

Sue Chiblow 1:04:53
I think Jesse should answer this because he was like with the Canadian Broadcasting Company. So communication would be like the major, major thing. But I think, you know, there’s so many mediums that we can use to communicate, besides just storytelling, like everybody loves to hear a good story; humour is so important.

You know, when you’re sitting with the Elders and they’re all just laughing, you just start laughing. You just start laughing. You don’t even know what they’re laughing at because it’s just contagious. But also, two, songs, dance, arts are so so important. Even being at gatherings and pow wows and listening to the emcees tell the stories about the different styles of the dances and why those are there, and there’s just so many opportunities.

There’s great young people that have made all these amazing little 30-40-second little Instagram clip things that everybody seems to really love, like, there’s just so many different mediums that we can use. My favorite, of course, is sitting around the fire and just sharing stories. But unfortunately, you know, we all can’t do that, because we have fire bans all the time all over the place. But besides just that, we can’t have a fire in the city either. So I think there’s just multiple mediums that we can use, besides just.

You know, I think, um, Aimée at the law school, and I hope we’re going to be there tomorrow, and I get to see Christi (Belcourt) and Isaac (Murdoch) have created a mural on this wall, and so like even things like that, I think are just having those more visible, but then remembering that you just can’t take a picture of it without asking for permission from the person who actually created those.

So I think there’s many multi, multi mediums on how we can communicate, and theater, you know, support Indigenous peoples in the theaters, support their artwork, buy their books. They have children’s books that are really good like, there’s so many different ways that we can do that. Do you want to add?

Aimée Craft 1:06:47
I don’t have much to add because you’ve captured so much. In that I would say, Okay, well, first of all, I want to premise this by saying, right now, in my mind, there’s a story about moose, because my family’s out hunting moose, and I’ve heard the word moose like 25 times this evening so I feel like there’s this very dramatic foreshadowing music that’s playing about like the moose that’s coming home that I’m going to see when I get back.

So that being said, film, and, you know, I want to recognize Rachel Plotkin, who’s one of the co-organizers of this session, and we worked on a series of films about land back and treaty relationships together and really hearing those voices and all those different perspectives and putting them together in ways that we hoped would help people understand but also activate from there.

I would also add gathering on land. So every year we have a Nibi Gathering in my territory, getting people together to share in their stories in all kinds of different ways I think is exceptionally powerful and doing that in natural environments and spaces. And the third thing and last thing I would add is language – actually being present in language as a means to understand and activate because when you say certain things in a language, there’s a whole lot of meaning and there’s a whole lot of people that aren’t in this physical realm that are hearing that and helping us to move things forward. So language is an absolute must.

Lisa Young 1:08:14
and a good meal also helps. Food. Yeah, definitely.

Audience Question #4 1:08:20
I really appreciated your point around money, power, and process being obstacles and also related to the point about forestry and glyphosate. And yet, last week, I was with the forestry industry at a conference here in Ottawa, and a real, genuine, I think, not amongst all people, but I think quite widely appreciation of Indigenous knowledge and approaches to that industry, as an industry in crisis that really needs to turn the corner.

And yet, you know, when I look at folks just down the road here on Parliament Hill, there are those that look at things like IPCAs as a threat to taking huge swaths of land out of commission. So what would you say to folks who are looking at our role and our future as a natural resource-based economy and the role of an Indigenous knowledge, IPCAs, and approaches to natural resource-based economy, what that has to offer, where those things come together?

Lisa Young 1:09:26
When we talk about IPCAs, it was in the context of protected areas and we talked a lot about how traditional colonial parks and the practices around excluding everything, you can’t protect land without basically taking man out of it, because that’s the destructive factor, right? You have to protect the land. You got to take out man, right? But for Indigenous people, it was never like that. We had a thriving economy and trade, and we used our resources and we were active on the land, but still managed to have a sustainable approach to that. So when we talk about protected areas, we don’t think about the fortress kind of protection that traditionally would be thought of as a protected area.

We think about like, yeah, there’s opportunity for economy in there. There’s opportunity to still have hunting and fishing and gathering and to make a living and sustenance from that land. It’s your concept about what that economy is and what an appropriate industry is for a particular space, right, that has a lot to do with it. And then, in terms of forestry as well like, if you talk to any of our community members, our leadership, they’re not opposed to industry. They’re not opposed to like development. It’s making sure, like, you know, like we always look at it like me personally, I look at it so that’s obviously, it’s a necessary evil. Anything you do on this land, it’s going to have an impact.

But from what our Elders tell us, and what their disparate perspective they want us to have, is that, how can you have those economies and how can you drive like a livelihood with most minimal impact that you can have on that land, like reimagine and rethink. Like the idea of two-eyed seeings, right, like we have all this science and knowledge and technology so imagine if you were using that and applying that knowledge through an Indigenous lens with that understanding of how connected we are to the Earth, and how our personal health as human beings is totally dependent on the health of the Earth, right?

If you have that mindset, if you have that understanding perspective, and you take your approach to forestry as an example through that lens, and using the tools of science and technology through that lens as a tool for like… Besides like, in my mind, a tool, like any other tool in your hand, it can be destructive or it can also be restorative, right? Like, so how you apply that is going to be through that lens, right?

So that’s two-eyed seeing, and that’s, that’s our answer. When people ask us, “Well, what about like, how are we going to have economy?” Like, you can still do that … we got to always push, just for our groups. We’re always pushing and challenging to do that in a better way. There’s always a better way. And we don’t like the idea like saying things like, “Well, it’s these are best practices.” That’s currently being done now, but are they acceptable practices is what we have to ask ourselves, right? Best practices are not good enough anymore.

Audience Question #5 1:12:35
I want to say thank you to the panel and to our gracious host for everything you’ve shared with us tonight. I feel very lucky to see the wisdom and compassion and knowledge and experience all on the stage and the good looks and so maybe I was referring to you, maybe I wasn’t. And so we’re very lucky.

But I want to ask a question of the panel. If I can paraphrase a bit from the RPAC report on the definition of reconciliation, that is the setting aside of differences, the resolution of conflict, it would seem that the goal of reconciliation is then incongruent with the idea of sovereignty because the Crown’s aim and reconciliation is to cement its claim to sovereignty over these lands.

So it seems to me that we can have true reconciliation or we can have sovereignty, but we can’t have them both at the same sitting. So I welcome you to disagree with me if if you think that’s incorrect, but if not, which would you prefer?

Sue Chiblow 1:13:49
Nobody wants to take it. Nobody wants to disagree. Which one would I prefer? I think that. Okay, so I’ve talked about … that was part of my dissertation is talking about reconciliation, resurgence and all that fun stuff with fluid language speakers.

A lot of them are fluid language speakers, and this is where I’ve learned that there’s that huge differences that come from the language, and because in our language, you can’t say reconciliation. One of the Elders said it’s like Gweksidoon is “You’re putting things right.” It doesn’t actually mean so … when you think about that word reconciliation.

And then when I think about people like Sharon Venne, Peter O’Chiese, all of the teachings that they have shared, Linda Toulouse from our territory, Ray, Joe Jones, all these people, even that word sovereignty can’t be said in our language.

So just even thinking about those and for me, it’s about living the teachings that I’ve learned, and being kind, which sometimes is really difficult to do when you’re driving in traffic, but you know, really, really trying to be kind in everything that you do, and living those teachings, living Anishinaabek Inaakonigewin and not trying to be in that world, and saying, “Oh, well, I need to decolonize, and I need to reconcile, and I need to indigenize, and all these beautiful words that have been the flavor of the day,” because when we think about … you talked about, it was Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples, right?

You said RCAP, yeah, and that stemmed from a conflict, and it was the Ipperwash Inquiry, where a police officer was killed. So then this government spent millions and millions and millions of dollars to try and figure out how to resolve this conflict.

Well, then another conflict happened, Dudley George. Anishinaabe person was killed because he was just trying to camp out in a park that was originally theirs, but the army had taken it over and was supposed to give it back. And there another commission report came out, and then the Truth and Reconciliation came out and looking at those things.

So that the old people always tell me again that it starts with right here. You know, when you’re harvesting, how you harvest, how you do reciprocity when you’re harvesting, so I don’t really try to look at those types of things and how to live like that. I stay in with the teachings that I have, and that is what motivates me to continue to move on and to share because there’s so many teachings that talk about how we’re supposed to do that. As an Anishinaabe person, my responsibility, not looking outwards, but looking inwards all the time.

Aimée Craft 1:16:22
So I’ll add to that. Reconciliation in the TRC report is defined as the establishment and maintenance of mutually respectful relationships and … there’s a bunch more paragraph, and then it says and requires ongoing and real societal change. So I hang on to that real societal change piece. I also take very seriously that the TRC said the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples is a cornerstone of reconciliation. So I’m drawing a little portrait here, but take the UN Declaration and what does that focus on self determination of Indigenous peoples?

So I think sovereignty is the wrong paradigm because sovereignty you can replicate what states have done in their sovereign actions and you can have conflicting sovereignties, but if you look at self determination, you can’t have conflicting self determination because self determination is inward. The results of exercising self determination may cause some friction, and those are the spaces in which reconciliation might need to play a role. But self determination itself really is about that inherent authority that emanates from within. So that’s the word I would pick if we’re choosing concepts.

Audience Question #6 1:17:33
I have actually a question. I’ve heard so much of everybody mentioning that, you know, there’s so many political boundaries, profit boundaries, but Crown law, it’s mostly comes down to the politicians, the provincial governments, federal governments, it’s hard to work with. What are your thoughts on electing more Indigenous leaders into our political system and gutting the system from the inside out?

Aimée Craft 1:17:56
I’m from Manitoba, and we now have an Indigenous Premier, so we’re putting that into action. We have Indigenous Cabinet Ministers within our government. So it’s happening, and it is actually starting to have some significant resonance. But I’d be interested in hearing what others have to say.

Lisa Young 1:18:14
I think that’s extremely important, but also within government bureaucracy as well, because a lot of times, even if you have like a government that’s kind of forward thinking and trying to create space and for reconciliation and all these things, there’s still a lot of issues and barriers like we talked about before within the government bureaucracy, right?

So even though there might be a government mandate to work towards a goal, if the individual on the other side of the phone or the other side of the table that you’re working with isn’t quite buying into it, doesn’t quite, you know, take it to heart that that’s a good thing to do, they can be very obstructive. So as many, I think, allies and champions we have in government, I think there might be just as many people who would just drag their feet in and be obstructive, just an opinion. I mean, it’s human nature, right? I mean, when it comes down to it, that’s why when we talk about the work that we’re advancing, it’s so important when it goes back to the relationship and building those bridges and those understandings with one another.

Jesse Wente 1:19:18
I might actually answer that one just because I am a Chair of a federal Crown Corporation, the first Indigenous person to ever be appointed to that position. I wouldn’t applaud that because I’m not sure I would applaud myself because being chair of a Crown Corporation is not exactly what I thought I would be doing.

Obviously, given my career, which has mostly been involved in working in colonial institutions and colonial systems, I believe that is necessary work and very important. I would also be the first to admit it is incredibly harmful. So while, yes, we need it to happen, and especially in the bureaucracy because in the bureaucracy, because I’ve now been working with government for a long time, that’s where shit actually happens, the politicians, honestly, who cares?

But like in the bureaucracy, you need folks that are actually going to do this stuff, and it would be great. And frankly, yeah, we need more genuine Indigenous people in the bureaucracy. And I would certainly say we need more people to do some of what I have done. But I would also say those people require an enormous amount of support, an enormous amount of care because every time you do that, you are harming yourself every single day to go into those places and have to argue for your very rights and existence and for that you are a human being, and it is exhausting.

And I’ll just put it this way, I had a heart attack last year at 50, and I’ve been doing this work. That is what the toll takes. And so while I appreciate that Manitoba has a new Premier, and we’re all applauding him. When I think of that, I just think, I hope Wab (Kinew), who I know, has got a lot of support, because I can only imagine, and I can only imagine what it would be to try to run federally or to try to do any of this.

And I say this because I’ve spoken with senators. I’ve spoken with Indigenous politicians. They all say the same thing. It is so hard, so hard, and that has been my experiences as well. It is incredibly difficult work. Yes, it is necessary, but I would say at this point in my life, I see way more value in us investing in our own communities and our own systems at our own institutions.

You all have had a long chance to fix this shit where our communities are starting to heal ourselves. It’s our turn to do our thing, and that may mean we invest less in your space, and you should expect that. And just like tough shit, and if you want to meet us, you should come to us, not the other way around. Start thinking about how you invest in our systems, instead of asking us to constantly invest in yours because, goodness knows, when it comes to this country, our communities have given more to this country than any other community, and we have received the least back. And it’s time to start seeing that reverse, and that includes our time and our efforts and all of that to reform this place. There’s not an accounting. There is no salary that actually can pay for that. And so yes, we need it to happen, but I hope those folks have a really good system of care around them, and that I hope we all support them because it is just that hard to do that work.

Jesse Wente 1:22:23
I wanted to …

1:22:24
Applause

Jesse Wente 1:22:26
… before we go, I did want to wrap up a couple of the ideas that we have heard on the panel so as part of summation. The first one is one I often say, and I love, which is, get comfortable being uncomfortable. I think that’s really good advice for all Canadians. I love this one. Don’t go to ivory towers, go to the land. Really good advice.

Nation to Nation to Nation to Nation, and be thinking of treaties between non-human nations and non-human kin, how that can inform us – that sometimes the most important thing is actually the removal of governance and jurisdiction from spaces, and then finally, above all else, truth and knowledge will always be what allows us to progress and move through these issues.

I want to thank the panel so much. It has been a remarkable honour to sit with you and to hear all of your great wisdom. Chi miigwech so much for sharing with us here today, I really appreciate it. Let’s hear it for the panel.

1:23:26
Applause

1:23:39
End with songs